The imports versus domestic argument on the car theft thread intrigued me. I'd like to continue that conversation but without distracting the initial purpose of that thread.

It amazes me how defensive people around here get about the Big Three. I realize they are the largest industry in the region but the lack of desire (or inability) of the top brass at Ford, GM, and Chrysler to create vehicles that could compete with the imports for about 20 years has led to shrinkage of automotive jobs in metro Detroit. Personally, I think Detroiters should be less loyal, rather than more loyal to the Big Three. If the professional managers had done their jobs for the last third of a century this region would be stronger. Face it Detroit, the Big Three has failed us.

Besides, it isn't as though they build all their cars here. Let me ask the "Buy American" crowd this...is it better for Detroit if one purchases a Mazda made in Flat Rock or a Saturn made in Tennessee? A certain Forumer to our south has suggested that it's better for Americans to buy cars built in Canada than Japan. How so? Canadian auto workers don't pay taxes in Michigan or the U.S. I suppose they may visit the U.S. occasionally but then again so do quite a few people from Japan. In what way does the Canadian auto industry help the American economy that the Japanese industry doesn't?

Even now, Japan beat the domestics to the market with hybrids. Granted, as Cafe pointed out elsewhere, the Ford Escape hybrid will be a pretty nifty vehicle but if Toyota and Honda have captured the core demographic for hybrids by being first to the showroom, will it matter. This isn't a problem with American engineers or auto workers; this is management lacking the foresight to realize how important these vehicles will be long-term. At the end of the day, it is American workers who lose. Yet we remain loyal to these companies to the point that it is acceptable in far too many circles to say a car-theft victim "got what he deserved" because the stolen car was a Honda. I wonder what the Japanese say when their neighbor finds his Mercury missing?

Please don't mistake this for bashing of American auto workers or some of the newer models the Big Three has developed. It'll probably be 5 or 6 years before I buy another car (the Japanese made Mazda is running nicely thank you) but if GM keeps overhauling their lines as they are doing now, I suspect my next car will be a General Motors product. Not because they ARE AN AMERICAN COMPANY but rather because they are making cars that compete with, and in some cases surpass, their foreign competitors.

So why is this town still loyal to these corporations? It can't be solely based upon nostalgia can it?

Jeff

It's not just the line workers and the cigar bar patrons who benefit from Big 3 sales. Go to a local shareholder's meeting, GM puts one on with a breakfast and free passes to the Auto Show each year, and you'll see a lot of retired UAW people who have sizeable holdings in the company they worked for. Buying a Toyota doesn't give them much benefit. They have a stake in American companies regardless of where the actual parts are made.

Bottom line; buy Japanese and you are sending dollars to Japanese shareholders.

Jelk, I guess it depends who you talk to and how that individual is related to the auto industry. I hardly think the Big Three failed Detroit. Look at all the money and people the auto industry has brought to the area over the years.


Imagine Detroit without the automobile industry.

"Imagine Detroit without the automobile industry."

Without some serious technical breakthroughs, we won't have long too imagine. Ford has been touting the hybrid escape for three years. That's three years the competition has been putting them in the hands of consumers and elevating their experience and knowhow in the process. You can't play catch-up forever.

That's what I'm afraid of...Detroit without the Automobile....what will we have? Chili Dogs and Hockey..lol

Jeff,

The Majority of American autoworkers buy American simply cause it puts food on their table. Sure, if they were unhappy with the product offered, they could buy foreign. Though if they get let go from their job, they would have no room to complain.

How does buying a big 3 car built in Canada help? When it's all said and done, that money finds its way back to our economy. Mazda was a poor example, since they are pretty much Ford anyways. You could have used Honda, Toyota, VW, or others for a better example.

Lastly, as far as the imports beating us to the import market, yeah, they did. However, they cars out there look like cheap pieces of shit to me. Atleast when the American versions hit the road, they will look almost identical to the internal combustion version.

SS made a very good point.

I'm not talking about American autoworkers; I'm talking about Detroiters in general. People who work for Company A tend to buy Company A's products for various reasons. I doubt Patrick works for an auto company yet he thinks people who drive foreign cars deserve to be victims of a crime. He is not alone in that irrational zealous support of the American auto industry in this town.

"How does buying a big 3 car built in Canada help? When it's all said and done, that money finds its way back to our economy."

That's a rather bold assertion, son. Can you back that up with some sort of evidence? Canadian auto workers don't pay American taxes, they don't purchase housing in the United States, start businesses in the United States. Perhaps some Windsorites cross the border to do a little shopping but the effects of a couple of dinners, a pair of pants and the like have a negligible effect on the American economy.

Mazda isn't a poor example since it is a Japanese brand and carries that stigma amongst the jingoists. Again, what is better for Detroit's economy, a Mazda made in Flat Rock or a Tennessee made Saturn?

Toyota and Honda hybrids look like cheap pieces of shit to you. Are you using your eyes or Chryslers PR department's eyes to look at them? Maybe you haven’t seen the hybrids since Honda released that stupid roller skate car about five years ago but maybe you should re-evaluate your preconceived notions. The Civic hybrid looks and drives exactly like the internal combustion Civic, which remains among the most popular cars in the United States (even if its last redesign was sub par). The Prius looks like a real car as well but don't ask me about that one, instead why don't you talk to domestic automotive journalists who named the Prius as the North American Car of the Year at this year's Auto Show. Oh yes another key fact about the hybrids, the Japanese got theirs to the market in time to let their customers take advantage of a fuel efficent tax credit set to expire soon.

Dropped the ball-atcha!

There was a distinct push launched during this years auto show to start called the "Big Three" the "Detroit Three". Toyota is now #1 in the USA, Daimler ate Chrysler. Some Japanese cars are more "american" than "usa" cars. At least as far as being made here. (My Ford Contour had Spanish, French and English printed on stickers throughout the engine compartment!) Insiders site Toyota with developing the spin on the "Big 3" name.

I say the "Big Three" is history.

I personally feel that in order to make a significant come back the city of detroit must move away from the auto industry. The automobile is the "enemy" of large cities. Before Henry Ford figured out a way to mass produce the american automobile all americans either lived in large congested cities or worked the land in a rural area. The automobile gave rise to the american suburb. There is no way that we can bring back the city using the same method that destroyed it in the first place.

Jelk just get in your car and drive around, and look at all the ancillary businesses that feed off the Big 3. The Japanese auto industry is protectionist; the Japanese automakers use mostly Japanese suppliers. So a big part of your Honda-buying dollar goes to Tokyo, and doesn't benefit many in the U.S. apart from the lucky souls who work in their plants. (I'm joking).

The Canadian autoworker spends a good deal of money in Detroit, judging from the Ontario plates at all the Costcos and malls. Alcohol and cigarettes and everything else are heavily taxed over there.

The Big 3 buy from our suppliers, they buy advertising in our media, their good health benefits given to autoworkers pushes up the benefits and standard of living of the rest of us in Southeast Michigan.

Sorry, award winning or not, that Prius is butt ugly. Throw the Civic in with the bland styling crowd as well.

As far as the cars built in Canada, the profits still come back here to Ford, Chrysler, and GM.

Here is a thought, people buy cars by the big three because they like them. I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that ANYBODY would buy a car they hate simply because its american. Maybe Detroiters don't wanna be "cool hipsters" like our fellow Californians that are all over the import scene. I'm sorry, I still laugh my ass off when I see some import blazin' a double decker wing on the back and the latest JC Whitney ground effects in primer.

Sport, get with the times. Those ground effects are now called "body kits". I think you should get a bumper sticker for your Nova that says "Boeing called....they want their wing back."

see Jelk, it's nothing to get worked up over

What makes me laugh is the ad for that import truck with Asleep at the Wheel's Ray Benson singing "Route 66," with scenes of the rice-eater traveling along in retro scenes on the Mother Road. Obviously to make us form warm, American associations with the import.

Oh yeah, when I think of Route 66, I think of a big old Japanese truck.

Sport you are missing my point. Yes, many people purchase domestics because they like them. What I am wondering about are those people in the Detroit area who continue to do the BUY AMERICAN thing while the Big Three has lost market share because its brass had little interest in SELLING AMERICANS top flight vehicles for 30-some years. That inability to make the best cars in the world cost this region many jobs (and quite a bit of spin-off businesses). The Big Three didn't hold up their end of the bargain, why do we continue to remain loyal to them?

As for your opinion of the Prius/Civic styling, that's irrelevant. You said Japan's hybrids didn't look like their gas only cars but that's not true. When you were caught by the weakness of you own argument, you've changed tactics. Ford is planning to market an Escape hybrid. Personally, I think the Escape looks like a Weight Watchers version of the Explorer. But that isn't a valid argument as to whether or not it is a good vehicle. You continue to bash the Toyota/Honda hybrids without offering one concrete argument. Keep trying though.

Jeff,

I wonder about this as well.

Some of Detroit's problems, though, might stem from that seemingly automatic purchase choice here in Detroit for 'Big Three' cars. Many people buy them, even if they don't work for a car company, because they DO perceive some link and/or they have some direct family member or friend whose job relates to the car companies.

This leads to a curious closed loop in our market, since a higher average number of people bought the cars here...it seems the automakers did not notice the market shift as quickly as they should have. I’m sure they saw the market share numbers, but it might not have seemed to match their realities when they drove around metro Detroit to their auto making jobs.

Detroit automakers got fat and the Big Three suffers this overweight problem to this day. They started paying their manufacturing labor what the market could bear when they made tremendously profitable large cars through the 60s, 70s, and 80s...but could not produce a reasonably profitable and competitive small car with that same labor rate when the market shifted after the energy crisis in the 70s. I think we’re in an extended ‘crisis’ now; and would love to see Detroit lead its way out of their current path towards much more efficient vehicles, instead of behemoth SUVs.

I don’t see another solution to this is, except the one they’ve taken…to build the cars in Mexico or abroad. But then there is a big jump from the entry to the more expensive cars, and the UAWs membership declines…along with our city, as long as it remains slaved to the auto industry.

Cheers,
John

Jelk,

You're trying to debate with a mix of opinion and fact. That will only lead to arguments. Saying that the domestic car companies dont care about selling top flight vehicles is argumentative and in my opinion is incorrect.

If you want to talk about facts, such as economics... you need to look a little deeper at the labor involved in an automotive company. It is not just a matter of assembly workers, and hence does not just matter where a car is assembled. There are also engineers, indirect labor, management, etc that work at the companies and are affected directly by car sales. Additionally there are retirees and stockholders that are affected less directly in the 2nd tier.... and then there are the vendors and support companies that are affected in the 3rd tier... and then there is the community (even the guy who sells ice cream to the auto worker's kids) who are affected.

So... what matters? Not only where a car is manufactured, but where the parts come from, where the product design and manufacturing engineering occurs, where the stockholders live and where they are... and finally where the company is and where they pay taxes.

No matter how good an "american" car is, you still have to go to the american dealerships and be treated like schit. #1 problem with american auto distribution in my mind. I personally asked Ron Zarella (former GM vp- now CEO at Bouch&Lomb) once why we couldnt do away with the dealership system and deal direct from factory outlets. He bust out in a big laugh and said "no WAY!, the dealers and the makers are all in bed together and that system can never ever be eliminated". He didnt disagree that it would be better for all involved..

(for all,except the dealerships.)

On a different occation, Jack Nassar (former head of Ford Motor Company) alluded to the same idea. He claimed that it was impossible to do away with dealerships because "then who would service the cars"...Uh..yeah. I asked about setting up simple repair facilities rather than dealers. He babbled something about "synergy" and was off the topic after that.

Yeah.. Synergy. LOL

Jelk,

You smell and yo momma dresses you funny. I don't know anything about Weight Watchers, nor do I believe you do either. LMAO

Sport...owner of three 'Merican cars. A daily driver that is 15 years old and not left me stranded even once.

I can totally see Jeff driving one of these. Yeah, cool styling!

http://info.detnews.com/joyrides/story/index.cfm?id=455

Mauser was on the money with his first post. Re-read it. It was on the money!

Yeah, Mauser, right on.

The last time they tried to slam dunk me on a sale was the last chance they get UNTIL I learn that someone is doing things a new way.

The car dealer network...minus a FEW of the foreign and Saturn dealers...seems DESIGNED to piss us off and chase us away.

The ONLY reason it has lasted unchanged until now is that we need cars to get around. Let the revolution begin.

BTW, I'm taking my Audi in for some expensive front suspension repairs today...at 150k miles...which I'll willingly suffer since I truly feel that this car is just breaking in. BUT I'm taking it all the way out to Ann Arbor, because I trust their service department more than the Farmington and B'Ham dealers. I always get a look from the B'Ham folks when they see me driving my 'working man's' Audi...with all those miles collected in three years.

Looking forward to the next 150k, and not having to buy a car from an abusive American dealer for at least seven years.

Sincerly,
John

In my experience the dealership treatment has more to do with how expensive their products are. Lexus, BMW, MB and the other import dealerships are generally on par with Cadillac. Chevrolet and Toyota dealers tend to have similar but lower levels of customer satisfaction. There also seems to be an assumption at the luxury car dealerships that their customers are more financially sophisticated and experienced at negotiation and won't put up with a lot of BS.

My experience buying a couple new domestic cars has been pretty good. The key was going into it knowing what I wanted. I speced out each car down to color and options, then called several area dealers to see if they were interested in getting a fax with the specs. I told them to quote a price and availability (in-stock or order from factory). All arrangements were handled over the phone until I went in to pick up the car. In-n-out in 60 minutes including a test drive to make sure the car was OK. If you buy a car the conventional way you may be in for some aggravation.

Regarding Mauser's point on dealerships (eliminating or circumventing them), that will never happen. Car dealers form one of the strongest lobbying groups in each state and have succeeded in having very car-dealership-friendly laws passed in each state that completely tie the manufacturers' hands. You wouldn't believe how hard it is for a manufacturer to shut down a bad (even law-breaking) dealer. I had a job with a car manufacturer where I tried to do this several times to no avail. Things get tied up in court for years and years. Eventually we paid the dealer to go away, and put a new guy in his place. It's a dealer's world out there, to the consumer's detriment.

"You're trying to debate with a mix of opinion and fact."

How else does one debate? I always thought debate involved analyzing facts and offering an opinion on them. Do you know of another, more improved way to debate? If so, I am intrigued and would like to know more, perhaps subscribe to your newsletter.

Something I find interesting is that many Detroiters can give you all sorts of reasoning on why you shouldn't buy cars from other countries, but are perfectly happy with all other imported goods. For example, the United States (particularly St. Louis) used to make lots of shoes, but now it is difficult to find a pair that wasn't made in China. And of course we buy lots of imported clothing, produce, cosmetics, hardware, electronics, etc....

I've had mixed experiences....I own a Dodge Ram Truck (made in Warren) and I love it! I've always had good luck with Chrysler Products, despite their reputation, and I've even had a few good experiences with 2 of their dealerships (even I admit that not all of them are great).

This year my wife needed a new car so we bought a Pontiac Vibe (also known as a Toyota Matrix). We love the price and the Gas mileage (28/33). But it does give you an overall feeling that it is a cheap car.

People in America don't realize that all of the car companies are "in bed" together, so it is not as simple as only "buying American" as it used to be. Ford is in bed with Mazda, Chrysler with Mitsubishi and Gm with Toyota. If you want to buy a car that benefits the local economy, then you have to open the driver's door and check the federal sticker so you can see where it was manufactured.